As I've surveyed shops in the past few weeks I've been completely amazed
to see how many pubs have closed in the past 2-3 years. I wrote about mapping former pubs a couple of years ago.
The one that provided the initial idea for this post : Vernon Arms, now a Sainsbury's Local
This is a photographic selection of some I have encountered in Nottingham over the past few weeks, with a sprinkling of ones which closed long ago, but which I used to frequent. I've tried to be reasonably eclectic in my choice of pubs and their current uses, unfortunately I didn't realise that a Police Station was a former pub.
Not all of these pictures are very elegant, at least in part because I'm not a fair weather mapper. Many are shot into the sun or the light was otherwise poor. After a while I realised I was seeing so many of these I started trying to be a little more careful in taking photos. Although these were originally OpenStreetMap survey photos, I soon realised I was documenting a significant phenomenon, and took a little more care with later ones in the sequence.
Of course pubs were used by some, such as Arthur Seaton in Saturday Night and Sunday Morning, as drinking dens. However, many of the large inner city pubs (like the Old General, Le Grand, and The Albion) were not just pubs, but meeting places for clubs and societies. The Old General, like many Nottingham pubs in working class areas, had an upstairs room which was used by a lodge of the Royal Antediluvian Order of Buffaloes (RAOB), sometimes known as the "poor-man's masons". Others had function rooms, where in the late 1950s and early 1960s you could see the like of the late Alvin Lee, which gives me the excuse to insert the following irrelevant clip:.
Pubs no longer provide this wide range of community functions. Now they have been hit by a multitude of factors: cheap beer in supermarkets, huge changes in demographics (as witnessed by the two mosques), fragmentation of their communities by urban 'regeneration', the Beer Orders, pubcos, indifference of the student population to traditional pubs, rapacious landlords, violent customers and probably benign neglect from the council.
So without more ado here is a further selection of former pubs and their associated lamp posts:
Crystal Palace, Clumber Street : this was my local before it was sold by the brewery to be converted into a clothes boutique. For most of the time since it has been an amusement arcade. After a period of being vacant it is now a bookies
Marquis of Lorne, Salisbury Street, Lenton : boarded up.
I first surveyed this pub 4 years ago and had to go inside to see if it was trading even then.
I've probably got quite a few pics like this among my OpenStreetMap photos, but maybe I should make a collection too. I spot former pubs quite a lot in residential areas of London, sometimes with nice tile decorations which make it obvious what it once was.
You should join this flickr group: http://www.flickr.com/groups/deadpubssociety/
There are loads of dead pubs near me, too, which I've thought about tagging. In addition to "amenity=dead_pub" for buildings in limbo, I'd assume that if a pub definitively changes use (to flats, a supermarket, mosque etc) but is still the same building and potentially recognisable as a former pub, it's worth adding "amenity:disused=pub" or similar, but if the building is no longer recognisable at all (or demolished) then the fact that it used to be a pub is not suitable data to record in OSM. Would you agree?
@Pgd broadly I'd agree with you, although around Nottingham we tend to use old_amenity=* with associated old_name=*, rather than amenity:disused which is a bit ambiguous (is it a pub, but disused or something else which used to be a pub).
Ideally Historical OSM is the place for pubs which have completely disappeared, but I must admit to having added a few nodes recently: as much to create a database of Nottingham pubs in order to evaluate the rate of change.
Mapping pubs which are now used for other purposes is pretty much essential for OSM. Many other sources of data will still refer to these as pubs (including any council open data) and the ability to cross-refer external data to existing OSM nodes is invaluable (more in next blog post).
Back in the 80s and 90s the Admiral Bendigo was a lively place to have a drink, even the mice used to go in in pairs! Once saw a man (one of Del's the Secondhand shop owner's employees) being beaten around the head with a speaker (probably by a disgruntled customer). I used to have the odd pint at the Fox...
@Mike Carter. It was never called the Admiral Bendigo IIRC, just Bendigo (he's the boxer above the door) who also has a town named after him in Australia.
In general I've used the last trading name of the pub (for instance I think The Local on Alfreton Road was called something else beforehand). Some places have so many names & name variants it's hard to keep up. My all time favourite was a pub I used to frequent called the South Ealing Tavern. Not long after the pub had been refurbished friends took me to their local pub The Penny Flyer. I thought it was a bit odd that I didnt recognise the pub name in the area. To my astonishment I discovered the pub had changed its name and I hadn't noticed. The new name lasted about 2 years & then they reverted to the old one.
Please please does anyone remember the The New Vic pub at the rear entrance to Victoria centre as was? Paul and Janet used to run it then would love to see some old photos or meet some of the people I remember from those halcyon days.thanks in anticipation.dg
SK53 received a Garmin GPS as a Christmas present in 2008. Foolishly he downloaded OSM, noticed a nearby street was missing, and promptly sold his soul to mapping. Since then he has mapped large parts of Nottingham, verified about half of Maidenhead, takes a PC on holidays for mapping, and now has 2 more GPS gadgets, but still feels the need for more. Further details on his OSM wiki page User:SK53
I've probably got quite a few pics like this among my OpenStreetMap photos, but maybe I should make a collection too. I spot former pubs quite a lot in residential areas of London, sometimes with nice tile decorations which make it obvious what it once was.
ReplyDeleteYou should join this flickr group: http://www.flickr.com/groups/deadpubssociety/
There are loads of dead pubs near me, too, which I've thought about tagging. In addition to "amenity=dead_pub" for buildings in limbo, I'd assume that if a pub definitively changes use (to flats, a supermarket, mosque etc) but is still the same building and potentially recognisable as a former pub, it's worth adding "amenity:disused=pub" or similar, but if the building is no longer recognisable at all (or demolished) then the fact that it used to be a pub is not suitable data to record in OSM. Would you agree?
ReplyDelete@Pgd broadly I'd agree with you, although around Nottingham we tend to use old_amenity=* with associated old_name=*, rather than amenity:disused which is a bit ambiguous (is it a pub, but disused or something else which used to be a pub).
DeleteIdeally Historical OSM is the place for pubs which have completely disappeared, but I must admit to having added a few nodes recently: as much to create a database of Nottingham pubs in order to evaluate the rate of change.
Mapping pubs which are now used for other purposes is pretty much essential for OSM. Many other sources of data will still refer to these as pubs (including any council open data) and the ability to cross-refer external data to existing OSM nodes is invaluable (more in next blog post).
Back in the 80s and 90s the Admiral Bendigo was a lively place to have a drink, even the mice used to go in in pairs! Once saw a man (one of Del's the Secondhand shop owner's employees) being beaten around the head with a speaker (probably by a disgruntled customer). I used to have the odd pint at the Fox...
ReplyDeleteThe Hermitage pub was originally called The Admiral Bendigo, please use the proper name!
ReplyDelete@Mike Carter. It was never called the Admiral Bendigo IIRC, just Bendigo (he's the boxer above the door) who also has a town named after him in Australia.
ReplyDeleteIn general I've used the last trading name of the pub (for instance I think The Local on Alfreton Road was called something else beforehand). Some places have so many names & name variants it's hard to keep up. My all time favourite was a pub I used to frequent called the South Ealing Tavern. Not long after the pub had been refurbished friends took me to their local pub The Penny Flyer. I thought it was a bit odd that I didnt recognise the pub name in the area. To my astonishment I discovered the pub had changed its name and I hadn't noticed. The new name lasted about 2 years & then they reverted to the old one.
Please please does anyone remember the The New Vic pub at the rear entrance to Victoria centre as was?
ReplyDeletePaul and Janet used to run it then would love to see some old photos or meet some of the people I remember from those halcyon days.thanks in anticipation.dg